Wow. A comment (see below), more specifically, a rebuke left on god’s behalf in response to the post, “Obama won’t be the next president.” Guess I hit a sore spot. Or something like that.
The interesting part is he’s sending me messages that are all quotes from the bible–no other text. What exactly does the bible mean to someone who believes it is nothing more than a collection of folktales, a history of sorts? And a shared one at that since many of the “bible” stories are also found in other religious texts. It means nothing to a nonbeliever and yet it is the only language Ezekiel speaks in….Interesting.
I Rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ.
And he will say, depart from me, for I never knew you!
Zeke:
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
You’re making Baby Jesus cry.
[...] to a someone spamming Bible verses on her blog, Dam, author of Raising Kids Without Religion, wrote a post asking what the spammer (and those like him) expect Bible verses to mean to people who see the [...]
dam, I thought that I would respond to your question as to why scripture quotes are used to respond to your posts. Many Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God. When you read the verses in a response the message enters your brain. It is then possible that the Holy Spirit can speak to your heart about the truth of the words that you have read.
Don’t worry though, it is not magic, and you can simply reject the grace and love of God that is offered to you. You don’t have to believe any of it. God invites us into a relationship with Him. It is not forced.
Thanks for the insight into the minds of some christians. I cannot relate at all to spirits or to one who believes the bible is the literal word of a god. I view the bible as a man-made “history” text containing folk tales, life lessons, tall tales, and pure flights of fancy…
What a fuss this all caused, so for all the people coming here because of it…
1. Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.
2. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
3. And to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed yoo
4. Judge not, that you be not judged.
5. Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
6. There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers
7. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
8. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.
9. Oh! the dirt, the filth, the scorn that is thrown upon those whom the world is not worthy. I suppose false teachers mind not that saying of Austin, Quisquis volens detrahit famae, nolens addit mercedi meae, He that willingly takes from my good name, unwillingly adds to my reward.
To be clear if you are a Christian and you are condemning Lottie, you need to read your book a little harder. Quoting something doesn’t make you that. If I speak in the language of the Italian I do not become Italian, if I speak in the language of a Christian I do not become a Christian. However, to cast shadows upon someone you do not know (and in most cases even someone you do know) is against what you are supposed to do according to that book… I only quoted 9, (really the entire parts being put in story form would have been the correct way, but when in Rome) but there are hundreds that lead to this same conclusion. Go pray for your soul as you just damaged it.
I think the time is almost up to see if any of this is true. Most of us are taking a “wait and see” approach. It was predicted in the bible that there would be false prophets in the last days, so the only way to find out about someone is to see if their predictions come true.
This would be true for anyone, believer or nonbeliever, Christian or atheist, for any prediction. Someone predicts a sunny day, and then we might have some confidence in them because they are usually right, and then we wait and see if the sun comes out. However, we are prepared for rain, in case we get a surprise.
There is a difference between a prediction and a prophecy. Scott predicted the Obama thing, based on an impression he had from a death experience. Maybe it was a dream, maybe it is true. There is nothing wrong in preparing for the unexpected, to err on the side of caution. If Obama gets in, then that settles it.
marianne
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/
Marianne,
You said: “It was predicted in the bible that there would be false prophets in the last days, so the only way to find out about someone is to see if their predictions come true. This would be true for anyone, believer or nonbeliever, Christian or atheist, for any prediction.”
Obviously, not everyone believes in the bible. I see it as a collection of folktales, loosely based on history. There is nothing divine or divinely-inspired about the bible.
If nothing more than an inauguration happens, will you examine your beliefs in these “prophets”?
Hi Dam
First of all, I respect your choice of unbelief. There is no intent on my part to convert anyone here. We are just discussing the final outcome of this Obama prediction. And I use the word prediction, rather than prophecy.
The rest of my comment is to just answer your question.
The real prophets were true and predicted real events, verified by history. Only someone divinely inspired can predict the future with 100 % accuracy. The bible prophets were able to do that. There were not many of them – but just a few.
In modern times, I would not call the average person a “prophet” who just expresses opinions, or tells a dream. A real true prophet is rare. THere have only been a handful of real ones. Current people who are looking for glory and fame as something special are obviously not real. There are others who are sincere, but mistaken.
SO, if Obama gets into office and stays there, this will not change my opinion of true prophets of the bible. They did not make the Obama prediction. Someone who had some sort of death experience did. It may have just been a vivid dream upon reawakening. Obviously, it (dream or vision) was a very dramatic experience, and it made an impact on Scott. I do not know for sure if it was just a dream. We will know in a few days.
best wishes
marianne
After taking another look at my bible I can’t find one prophet that was 100% accurate. If possible can someone expand upon this thought?
Terra,
I would be happy to respond to specific examples, if you would care to list two or three Biblical prophecies that you believe to be inaccurate.
I dunno, seems kind of silly though. If you’re vague enough about the event and don’t get too strict with the timelines, anyone can create prophecies. Actually, let me try a few. =)
The Prophecies of Dave
1. In the next 100 years there will be a great conflict which will take many lives. Leaders will be pitted against one another and nations will be torn asunder.
2. In the next 100 years a great natural disaster will wreck havoc on a peaceful people. Chaos will follow and the world will unite in peace to aid those who suffered.
3. In the next 100 years, a great leader will emerge who rallies a nation. He will usher in an era of peace and prosperity.
See? Easy! And I can betcha they’ll come true too. Point I’m trying to make is that we can make anything true as long as we interpret it properly.
No fair, Dave. I already predicted #1 & #3.
Dave, I totally get that concept. I am a tarot card reader, and it works every time. I am not so out of it to not understand that it works every time because the cards are spelled out to work that way. I find it fascinating, as generally the cards don’t really answer the question posed by the person, the person really answers the question with what they know to be true. (I love how the mind works.)
Pastor Curt,
I would say the biggest one all over the place is the end of days. It was supposed to happen (according to many including Jesus) within their lifetimes. He also said he would be back on earth to establish his kingdom within their lifetimes.
To Terra, if I may explain the things you mentioned in your Jan. 20 post, about the end of days happening in our lifetimes. I had the same concerns as you about that scripture until I asked my very knowledgeable Sunday School teacher. Actually the Bible says, “in this generation” which we almost all interpret as a human “lifetime”. She said that “this generation” was the generation of “mankind”. That makes an awful lot of sense. Hope this helps.
lilove11, 75+ yrs and still learning every day.
Just pray for the Lord to show you the real meaning of things that you don’t understand.
lilove11, I appreciate your reply (really I do.) However, it is my opinion that the reason that is the answer to the question is not because that is what the bible says, but rather that is what it needs to have meant in order to keep a unreal thing viable. If you read beyond the bible to other writings of the times, it doesn’t suggest that we are talking all generations, rather they are quite specific that it would be in the lifetime of those that were being talked to.
This would be like me saying the world is going to end in 20 years, but putting no date to say when the letter was written. It takes a definitive statement, and makes it meaningless. (As shown with the people that say “the world is going to end on ____ date. The most popular modern thought is in 2012, but there were dates before that. Then when they didn’t happen they are just pushed farther.)
The problem with the logic is it is circular, and circular logic appears stable on the outside, but in reality makes no sense. If I say babies are born evil and must be taught how to be good, then go on to say that the evil babies were not taught, then a child isn’t taught the “way” we think the child should be taught, then we end up with an evil person, does that make the first statement true? No way. It means we created a circular reasoning pattern, that can never be proven, as it is a prophecy that is circular in reasoning.
I have even had one person tell me that the “end of days” really means the end of life as we know it, not the literal end of the world. Which my response would be, then we have an end of the world many times in a lifetime…
If we read into the actual language of the bible, Jesus literally say that the world would end in THIS generation (which was a long time ago.) He specifically tells the people, that the horrible things will be seen by those people (not people in the future). He specifically says they will be around when he gets back. Not us, those people, the ones he was talking to. He specifically said that the people then would bear witness to the events, and that they needed to be prepared, as this end was going to come quickly.
I am not sure why this is so contested, it isn’t one of those things that is mentioned once or twice. This is something that is repeated so many times it can’t be missed. It is spoken about in so many places, and in so many ways and not once does it say it will happen later. That is conjecture to make something that is invalid retain its value.
Terra,
Mathew 24:34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”
Luke 21:32 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.”
These are the only verses that I could find that specifically refer to a return within a generation. In both of these passages, this saying is a part of a greater context in which Jesus is talking about both the coming destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and also the final judgement of the world.
The destruction of the temple took place in 70 AD, which is approximately forty years from the time of Christ. Many scholars accept forty years as a “generation”.
The word translated generation is the Greek word “genea” which can be translated as age, generation, nation, or time. (Strong’s Concordance and Dictionary) If Jesus meant that the Jewish nation would not pass away, then it is something quite different than a forty year time. It is especially interesting because although Israel did not exist as a nation for almost two thousand years the people of Israel, the Jews, continued their identity as a nation without a land.
Each generation of Christians has lived with the hope that Christ could return in their lifetime. That is not a bad thing.
Pastor C,
So basically, there are many ways to interpret it….all the way from 40 years to…well….the end of the world right?
I’m not really sure that qualifies as a “reasonably accurate” kind of prediction or prophecy.
Part of the confusion of the Biblical prophecies is something called, “prophetic skip”. This is what the book, Armageddon, Oil, and Terror”, by John F. Walvoord with Mark Hitchcock, wrote about it:
“In presenting these two forms of the Roman Empire, Daniel skips over many centuries from historical Rome immediately to end-time prophecy. This kind of “prophetic skip” is consistent with a principle found in much of Old Testament prophecy: Often the writer describes events that were prophetically fulfilled in Israel’s exile or the first coming of Christ and then moves almost immediately from those details into end-time prophecy, describing the Great Tribulation and millenial reign of Christ. (See, for example, Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 9:26-27; Zechariah 9:9-10; Malachi 3;1-3.)”
My understanding of these two “this generation will not pass” verses are that they are refering to the generation that sees Israel return to her homeland and become a nation, as she did in May, 1948.
I am no expert, but the books I’ve studied say that in the surrounding verses, Matthew 24: 32 and Luke 21:29, Jesus refers to the parable of the fig tree. I’ll focus on the Matthew one.
This is from the book, “Countdown to the Apocalypse”, by Grant R. Jeffrey, (The books say it so much better than I can explain it myself.) “Jesus promised that the last-days generation that witnessed the rebirth of Israel (May 1948) would also witness His return to earth to set up His messianic kingdom. Christ declared, ‘Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.’”
Then it says: “The Bible uses the fig tree repeatedly as a prophetic symbol of the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 24:1-10; Hosea 9:10). We can confidently await the return of Christ in our lifetime. According to Psalm 90:10, the length of a typical lifetime or a natural generation is seventy to eighty years: ‘The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years.’” (A score is twenty, so threescore is sixty and ten, obviously, makes it seventy.)
This is my understanding of it from what I’ve read: “when his branch is yet tender” refers to Israel becoming a new nation (again in 1948).
Even Daniel didn’t understand the visions he was shown and asked twice about it, (Daniel 12:6 and 12:8) and still didn’t understand. Then the one giving him the vision told him in verse 9 and 10: “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.”
If you read just a handful of prophecy books, they may not be sure about certain things here and there that are not as clear, but you will start to form a basic end-time picture of what the varied and scattered prophecies are pointing to, and it is amazing. Just seeing how the countries are aligning with what the prophecies say are going to happen makes you realize that something big is happening here. The rapture is supposed to be the next thing on the prophecy time-line, as things are so falling right in-line with what needs to be for the 7 year Tribulation period to happen.
There are the most interesting things going on now, such as that China’s population control policies and one child per couple policy has made it so people will abort girl babies hoping to have a boy baby. India has a similar bent, apparently, towards aborting girls to have boys. This has the effect of distilling these nations into a nation of men, which is right along the lines of the prophecy that comes along in Revelation 9:13-16 and 16:12 refering to the sixth angel about the kings of the east coming with an army of 200 million horsemen against Israel and the anti-christ who seems to be stationed there. Apparently, China itself could come up with that amount of soldiers out of the number of people it has currently.
There have been people who say that is going to literally happen and people who say it is a 200 million demon army because there are parts that talk about the spiritual battle going on behind the scenes and the descriptions of the horses and so on. I like something I’ve heard before and just saw in the Arm., Oil, and Terror book:
“About half of the prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled. Studying these passages makes it clear that when prophecy in the Bible was fulfilled, it was fulfilled literally.”
There are a couple of other prophecy books I’ve read recently:
“What in the World is Going on?”, by Dr. David Jeremiah
“The Complete Book of Bible Prophecy”, by Mark Hitchcock
These authors each usually have other books dealing with different aspects of prophecy.
I haven’t read the following book yet, but I will soon:
“And the Lamb Wins”, by Simon Ponsonby
You can let the prospect of learning what prophecy means stop you in your tracks with frustration or you can just steadily and consistantly learn what the different parts of the puzzle mean and eventually put together more and more of the puzzle. It’s not something you can just flip a switch and understand in one day. In this day of instant gratification that’s what we want, but unfortunately that is not how studying the Bible works. You can do it, just do it little by little and don’t focus so much on the unknown things that create that vicious circle in you. Eventually, if you move beyond focusing on them, and study other things beyond and around them, you may stumble on things that explain them. But if you really cling to staying focused on the vicious circle things, they will be yours as long as you want them to be and that’s all you will see.
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” Proverbs 25:2
God bless your search and mine.
Dave, Biblical prophecy is a challenge for believers to understand. It is not surprising that people who do not believe in God would find it to be meaningless. As Elsie has pointed out earlier there are many people who seek to unravel the mysteries of prophecy. Only time will tell who has got it right. Some basic things though are quite clear.
Christ will return.
There will be a day of judgement.
Past C,
And I will go to work next week.
And the Cubs will win the World Series again.
And I will turn into a flying unicorn.
I’m not trying to poke fun at you, just trying to make the point here that this is a pretty big problem for people like myself. I know you have a different kind of perspective on it, and it must make more sense (you seem like a sensible guy and a smart one at that) from where you’re standing.
The whole idea of faith and believing in something you can’t see…I can kind of get that. In a way it’s similar to my brand of Atheism (explicit Atheism) where I have no proof of my belief (that is, no proof that God doesn’t exist) yet I believe absolutely that no God exists anyway. The idea of prophecies is something that still doesn’t pass muster with me, yet I suppose if I can empathize with the idea of faith I should be able to empathize with the idea of prophecies….they are related.
Elise;
Holy-Wall-Of-Text!!! I’m not sure much of that put any new ideas out to me there, but I will say….I do kinda like that last quote. It’s kind of poetic.
I think it’s interesting that Scott Walkington made his video private….(Try clicking on the link.) Seems like he just would said,”OK, I was wrong. I just wanted attention.” Perhaps he was innundated with “ha-ha’s.”
Pastor C,
If you ever happen to be around Chicago, let me know. I’d be happy to take you out for a cup of coffee or something. I’ve enjoyed the conversations.
Dave,
Do you run before you walk?
Do you walk before you crawl?
Do you crawl at birth?
Trying to understand the prophetic portions of scripture when you don’t accept John 3:16 is like trying to sprint at birth.
It’s been over twenty years since I last passed through the Chicago area, but thanks for the sentiment. I suspect we would have a great conversation.
Pastor C,
You have a point…there may be limits to my ability to understand and empathize if I don’t possess the “fundamentals” as it were. Still, I’ll keep thinking about it.
As always, thanks for the posts. =)
I didn’t mean to spark a disagreement within the bible.
I respect your opinion I just have a different one… My understanding is different my view comes from (All in NIV);
1. Hebrews 1:1-2 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
2. 1 John 2:18 18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
3. 1 Peter 1:20 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
4. 1 Peter 4:7 7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
Keep in mind this was only one that didn’t come true, there are quite a few others. (One other example would be Luke 19:42-44.)
I forgot to mention that the way the bible reads, it seems clear that the people thought the end itself was near, I am not talking about a portion of it, I mean the whole thing. That is where I have a problem with the idea that Jesus was perfect and all that. When Jesus spoke of the end it sounds much like he is saying some of the people he was talking to would see it, and unless that conspiracy stuff about reincarnation is true it doesn’t make sense in that way. If the reincarnation one explains some of it, it sure doesn’t explain them all.
I also do want to take a minute to admit that a time period of “soon” is relative, and I will give that much. However, then one must follow that which Dave points out.
Those are my problems with the idea…
Well and my morals leave his as something to be desired, I know we are to judge morals upon the time that they happened and not by the standards of today. However, it seems to me if the guy was supposed to be perfect his morals would have fit universally. The same problems that the people that I see with the Muslims, as the faith of Israel has rules that were perfectly acceptable for the time, but they are outdated.
Terra,
I agree that the first generation of Christians believed that Jesus could return in their lifetime.
The Bible is comprised of different literature forms. There is narrative, didactic, poetic, prophetic, etc. There is a difference between the belief that Jesus could return at any moment and the prophetic statement that Jesus will return within a certain time frame.
Mark 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
II Peter 3: 8&9 “But beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
(These verses are didactive, or teaching, in nature.)
I believe that it is one of the good qualities of prophetic literature that each generation can live in a state of expectancy of the Lord’s return. It does something for our attitude towards life.
I appreciate this opportunity to clarify and present my views on these issues.
Your comments about morality are an entirely different issue. Scripture is to be read, interpreted and applied. It is not easy to get everything right. I don’t believe that anyone is 100% correct in this process, although obviously we try to do our best. I could address specific issues if would like me to do so.
Pastor C,
Two things;
1) I perked up when I noticed what you said about prophetic literature and “that each generation can live in a state of expectancy of the Lord’s return. It does something for our attitude towards life.” It seems that, by design, this is one of the big purposes that prophecy fills…to create a sense of expectancy and a (hopefully positive) attitude towards life. I thought about it a little and it seems that it would also make scripture seem more “immediate”. Is this a fair thing to say? What else do you think prophecies provide?
2) In terms of morality….I know it’s a big topic, but are you saying that you think there are Universal (Truths) Morals and people are just trying to discover their nature….or do you think we kind of have Relative (Truths) Morals. I’m not sure I really phrased this question the best way possible…but I tried. =)
I agree with the comments that you made about prophecy creating a sense of expectancy and, yes, “immediate” is a good word to describe a prevailing attitude.
Furthermore prophecy helps us on either end of the spectrum of life. If things are going well for us, materialism is one of the greatest traps for Christians to be sucked into here in the US. Materialism could be described as an attitude that this world is the center of our joy. That place belongs to God. Prophecy reminds us that this world is not our final destination, although we can enjoy the journey.
On the other hand if our life is difficult. Prophecy provides hope for a better future. This can be a good or bad thing. It is good when it gives us hope. It is bad when that hope leads us to make poor choices in this life. I tell my people that God will give us strength and wisdom for the challenges of today, and hope for a better tomorrow.
Prophecy also provides a sense of where we are going. We just have to be careful with the question “Are we there yet?”
Regarding morality, I believe that there are a small number of universal principles. For example genocide is wrong. Rape is wrong. There are no circumstances that I can think of where those actions would be “right”. These principles are hierachical, that means that some are more important than others. This position is called moral objectivism in ethical theory There are also some moral injunctions that are relative in nature and expression. Since universal principles are somewhat limited, there needs to be additional rules for governing human behavior. The lines between morals, laws and customs can be a little blurry.
Pastor C,
First let me say that I like the rational tone you take, it makes it a pleasure to speak to you.
I have a few questions. (I won’t get into the morals and Jesus as all in all I think he was a good man. I just don’t like some of the things on my own, and it is always true that it is entirely possible that something that I don’t like you see in a different way.) The first question is not a disagreement, just a “feel you out” type of question…
You mention that genocide and rape are universal wrongs. I agree strongly, however, it is quite OK if the one doing it is god correct? (Yes I question the morals of god(s) as well. However, I see them as a man made invention so it is different for me.) As for rape, is it to you (for your own morals) rape if the people involved are husband and wife? (One of the problems I have with the bible in itself is the role of woman, and that includes the role with their husbands.)
Of course you don’t have to answer…
I believe that God is our creator, redeemer, lawgiver and judge. (This list is not meant to be exhaustive.) In the Old Testament, at times, God ordered the destruction of entire communities. This was a terrible action that was taken for the specific purposes of demonstrating the serious consequences of sin, and the importance of seeking a life of righteousness. Humans do not have the right to pronounce that type of judgment.
Some claim that a God who loves us would never judge us. No one who has read, and believes the Old Testament would doubt the reality of a pronounced coming judgement. At the same time, God loves us and has offered to us forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
I believe that rape would go against the character of God, so God would never perform such an act, nor was such an act ever prescribed. Within the bonds of marriage, it is still necessary that both partners be willing participants.
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her.” Eph 5:25
“So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.” Eph 5:28-29
Pastor C,
Your kind of like a walking cliff notes publication on the Bible, so while I’ve got your ear, I hope you won’t mind my curiosity. =)
In the bible there’s a clear difference in tone/attitude/etc between the old and new testament. Why such a sharp difference?
The short answer is that the Old Testament emphasizes law, while the New Testament emphasizes grace.
Paul wrote “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” (Galations 3:24) and “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
Much of scripture can be read in terms of the relationship between law and grace.
Pastor C,
While I think I might understand what you mean by “law”, I’m not clear on what you mean by “grace”?
Interesting interpretation… I am a bit lost on the “nature of god” it seems like the nature is quite dependent upon the person doing the reading….
So here is my ultimate question of Christianity… How does one person die (Jesus) and save all others? How or why would that work. Logically speaking it makes no sense, and goes against my personal sense of justice. I could go on and on about this question, but I will just leave it as it is.
Terra, This is a good question. I’ve often wondered, as I was sitting in Catholic mass with my mother, if it has something to do with Christianity being based in magic and alchemy.
Dave, Terra, and Dam, your comments are actually related. Thank you for the opportunity to share what I consider to be the heart of the gospel message.
Two qualities of God that are an expression of his love for humanity are his mercy and his love. Mercy is extended when we do not receive the punishment that we deserve. Grace is extended when God gives us blessings that we do not deserve.
Another quality of God is that he is just. There is a penalty for sin. “The wages of sin is death” (see above) Jesus’ death on the cross is called the atonement. The atonement is possible because Jesus was not just a man, but both God and man. As God he had the ability to receive the punishment due to all humanity for their sins. “He paid a price he did not owe, I owed a price I could not pay.” as the song goes. The death of Jesus satifies the justice of God and allows him to extend his mercy and grace to those who are willing to receive the forgiveness offered in Christ.
The nature of God is constant. It is our interpretation that changes. Our understanding can grow and develope, becoming more accurate, or it can become twisted and perverse and move further from the truth.
I sincerely hope and pray that my understanding is moving closer to the truth.
Dam, one more thing. It is not magic, because magic is an attempt by humans to manipulate spiritual powers. When God does miraculous things it is a part of his nature, he is God, after all.
Thank you for your comments, Pastor C. Though I don’t beleive, you have an interesting perspective….
The Catholic church was steeped heavily in magic (some remnants remain). The communion wafer, for example, through a few words by the priest, is converted from simple bread into the actual body of Christ. In the Middle Ages, the peasants used to slip their wafers into their pockets and take them home. Some would save the wafer for when they-or a loved one-were sick, others would sprinkle it over ailing crops, believing the wafer to have magical properties. There are other examples, too.
Pastor C,
You actually touched on something that I’ve always found kind of strange. Maybe you can lend your perspective to this.
What’s the point of free will if a judgmental god beats us about the heads saying, “You can do what you want, but I’m going to drown you, turn you into pillars of salt, be vengeful, etc if you DON’T do what I want!” Now, I understand how a parent can discipline a child, using rules and punishment to protect them from themselves….but a parent turning a child into a pillar of salt (or something equally gruesome)?
Now, I know that what your saying is “Well that’s why Jesus died, so that we wouldn’t be beat about the head, turned into pillars of salt, etc” and I get that…but why the change? Did the first strategy (judgment, punishment, wrath, etc) not work out so well? What gives?
I know there’s more than one topic in there, but I think you kind of know what I’m getting at.
Dam,
This is actually very interesting….Catholicism took off very well in various parts of the world where the cultures already had practices involving ritual and multiple spirits/deities.
I’d also agree with magic…different people have different names for it, but really we’re talking about things happening for no real scientific reason at all, ergo “It’s magic!” =)
Quite an interesting way of looking at it, it follows some of the horror movies I have watched in the past. (I don’t remember the names so I will just give an example.) The end of the world is coming a woman is pregnant, she offers up her life to spare that of her child… (Now that I write that I think it was seventh sign?)
Anyway, I guess I slightly understand the idea behind the answer, but I don’t like it. That isn’t a justice that I would go along with. It suggests that if my daughter turned out to be a killer, and I was to give myself up as her killer to protect her that would be a “good” thing for me to do… I know that you will most likely see that as a perversion of what was just said, but while that example is extreme the theory still fits.
One last question, do you actively look into the other works that should be part of the bible? (This one is one that bothers me a lot.) If not what is the basis for the thought? (Dustin’s grandmother says it is a sin to look into it, even to the bible’s that are not as popular. Her reasoning is if she was supposed to know god would have put those into her book. I do not actively question her faith so I cannot really ask her these questions.)
Dam, It is not just that Catholics that have some practices that have misplaced their focus, or their perspective. Churches are an interesting combination of the human and the divine and although I believe that most are trying to represent and serve God, sometimes they miss the mark.
Dave, God wants to have a relationship with people who freely choose to respond to his invitation. Those who do not want anything to do with God can reject that invitation and move further from God. In eternity we will get what we have been seeking. A relationship with God, or an eternity without God. All of the laws of God are rooted in the command to love God, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Accepting the love of God is wonderful, while the rejection of the love of God will have serious consequences. The very best and the very worst of this world is as nothing compared to the contrast of heaven and hell. The judgments in the Old Testament serve as a warning, just as the promises of blessing serve as an incentive.
Terra, if in combat a person sacrifices his or her life for their comrades they are called a hero. Christ sacrificed his life for us so that we could live. It is not however this physical life that is in question but rather the eternal life of our soul, or spirit. Furthermore, the death of Christ is not the end of the story. Christians believe that he rose from the dead and has ascended to heaven so that one day all believers will join with him.
I have in my library a number of books that contain writings from the 1st and 2nd century that were excluded from the New Testament. The church in the second century went through the materials that were available at the time and kept in the New Testament only those works that they felt had a legitimate connection with one of the apostles. The discarded work was either suspect, or noticably flawed in doctrinal content.
Pastor C. That last part–about works excluded from the New Testament–is interesting. I assume you mean the Catholic church went through them….I wonder who had this sort of power to decide. It’s interesting-the history of the Bible.
Pastor C,
You kind of talked around the question I was asking, but basically with the sharp difference in tone between new and old testaments….what accounts for that? I know you’ve mentioned jesus as the reason (forgiveness of sin, etc) but that move itself marked a very distinct change in approach to the problem of human sin.
Does literature address the “why” of this sharp change in God’s policy towards sin?
Also, I’ve heard about the books you mentioned, very cool that you’ve collected them!!! =)
dam, in the early second century, it wasn’t yet called the Catholic church, it was just the church. There were groups of people, even then that had different understandings of what it meant to be a follower of Christ. These groups had literature of their own that was conflicting with what was accepted as orthodox. The decision was made by the accepted leaders of the still loosely organized church who came together for that purpose. Of course, there were some who disagreed with their decisions.
Dave, I think part of my problem with anwering your question is trying to keep the response reasonably brief, but also, that I do not see them as so very different. I have read them both many times over the years, and in my mind there is no problem at all. The Old Testament points to the New Testament. The New Testment fulfills and reflects the Old Testament. They really do belong together. In both Testaments the righteous believers are rewarded; the unrighteous, and unbelievers are judged. It is possible that some think of the Old Testament as a book of anger and wrath, while the New Testament is a book of love and forgiveness, but that is an inaccurate perception. Both elements are contained in each.
I hope this helps.
Pastor C. You are a wealth of religious information! It is interesting chatting with you.
Paster Curt,
Thank you for sharing your faith and views. It is quite interesting, and I appreciate it more than I could possibly express in a few words. Also I really appreciate that you can study the other works. Honestly you are the first follower I have ever “met” that has (or will admit as the case may be) to reading outside of the bible itself.
I have one last question, but feel free not to answer it as it could be touchy to do so here in this particular blog. I would prefer that it be ignored than to stop the tone of the conversation. In your opinion what is your view of an atheist in regards to life? Explanation: I have been told that they cannot be good people, and similar things as they are equated with the devil. I assume you don’t hold those views as you are willing to have this type of talk, however, I wonder what your thoughts are.
Once again thank you, it is nice to have someone that is so open.
Atheists are people. Some of them are truly wonderful, loving, upright, moral people. Some of them are not. Some, perhaps most, atheists have been burned by bad experiences with Christianity. Some atheists think that all Christians are idiots, and that the only intelligent response to life is atheism.
(Actually, if you swapped the terms Athiest and Christian, you could say the same thing.)
All atheists are people who God loves, and for whom Christ died and who God tries to draw to HImself.
All atheists are free to choose how they will respond.
Pastor C,
It is nice to run into people who don’t demonize atheists. =)
I also appreciate you answering a lot of my curiosities in a very open and honest way, it really is refreshing and pleasant to be able to talk about these sorts of things.
One of my very good close friends is extremely republican (I’m more of a moderate…whatever that means these days), and while we get in some very interesting and energetic debates, we can do all of that while not losing sight of the things we have common.
I wish more people could talk to each other in such a way.
Dave, and anyone else who might be reading, you can check out my blog at http://cgirod.wordpress.com. There are a variety of posts on religious and philisophical issues. We could continue the discussion there if you are interested in what you have read.